10. Women’s hair is not the covering. If it were, Paul’s admonishment, “if a woman does not cover her head, let her have her hair cut off” (1 Cor 11:6) does not make sense. How could a woman who refuses to have hair have the same hair cut off as a result?
9. Whether or not hair covering is a “salvation issue” is irrelevant. Last time I checked, Christians did not get to choose which church practices (baptism, Lord’s Supper, forbidding female teachers) or moral practices (lying, stealing, fornication) are optional. Christ’s blood washes us from all sin. In gratitude, we are obedient as much as possible to God’s commands.
8. Wedding rings are not the modern-day replacement for headcoverings. First, wedding rings are worn by both men and women, so unlike men not covering and women covering, wedding rings do not serve as a differentiation between men and women. Second, unlike modern wedding ring practices, in ancient Rome and Greece the ring actually served as a differentiation in that only women wore rings. So, if rings were a valid replacement for a covering, Paul would have not failed to mention this.
7. Headcovering is extremely important, because it demonstrates the reality within the Godhead that the Son submits to the Father (1 Cor 11:3).
6. Headcovering was not something that only applied to a narrow context in Corinth. Paul specifically said that “we have no other practice, nor do the churches of God” (1 Cor 11:16).
5. Headcovering is not a debatable practice which it is acceptable for us to have different positions on. Paul warns the Corinthians not to be “contentious” concerning this issue (1 Cor 11:16).
4. It is patently false that only women of ill-repute failed to cover their heads in ancient Greek society. In fact, Greek prostitutes were known for their headcoverings called “mitres.”
3. It is historically untrue that all women in the Greek and Roman world covered their heads. We have a preponderance of writings, statues, paintings, pottery, and even preserved bodies from Pompeii that prove this. Further, though it is fairly well established (by the standards of ancient history) that all Jewish women kept their heads covered in public, it is also true that Jewish men sometimes covered their heads (especially priests.) Further, Roman and Greek men also had headcoverings of their own. Therefore, the Christian practice of women covering and men not doing so has no precedent in culture or history. It is innovative in its own right.
2. The Church universally upheld the traditional practice of headcovering until woman’s liberation became a paradigm. It is extremely rare for the Church to get an issue universally wrong for almost 2,000 years if we are to believe that the Holy Spirit guards His Church from pervasive, universal error.
1. The explicit wording of 1 Cor 11:2-16 is easy to understand and not confusing in what it requires. For this reason, Tertullian wrote (about 200AD) that the Church universally followed the practice and the debate was over whether unmarried women should wear coverings (which he claimed “half” the churches did). He noted that the Corinthian church itself, who had originally received the letter, required both married and unmarried women to cover.
Ed: This article was made when I was a Protestant and upon greater learning and reflection my thoughts may have evolved.
7. Headcovering is extremely important, because it demonstrates the reality within the Godhead that the Son submits to the Father (1 Cor 11:3).
That really got me LOL LOL LOL. Do you need women to “demonstrate the reality within the Godhead that the Son submits to the Father”? LOL.
5. Headcovering is not a debatable practice which it is acceptable for us to have different positions on. Paul warns the Corinthians not to be “contentious” pertaining to this issue (1 Cor 11:16).
Tell that to your Protestant brethren. They’ll just laugh at you and accuse you of “Catholicism”.
2. The Church universally upheld the traditional practice of headcovering until woman’s liberation became a paradigm. It is extremely rare for the Church to get an issue universally wrong for almost 2,000 years if we are to believe that the Holy Spirit guards His Church from pervasive, universal error.
But you yourself believe it is not extremely rare: according to you, the Catholic Church got many issues “universally wrong for almost 1,500 years”.
“the Catholic Church got many issues “universally wrong for almost 1,500 years”.” Never said that.
No, you never said the CC got many issues wrong for 1,500 years? Considering your 300+ years threshold for orthodoxy, give and take a couple of hundred years. You either go along with all Protestants and claim that the CC got so many issues wrong for so many centuries, or you don’t.
You said: “It is extremely rare for the Church to get an issue universally wrong for almost 2,000 years if we are to believe that the Holy Spirit guards His Church from pervasive, universal error.”
Yet, according to all I’ve heard from non-Catholics, non-Orthodox over the years is that that is exactly what happened to all Catholic doctrines and practices that post-Luther Christians reject (I don’t need to make a list here, I guess).
So if you argue for veils, you should also argue for a host of other issues, or else “the Church would have been wrong for ~1986/1500 years”.
“No, you never said the CC got many issues wrong for 1,500 years?”
No. I think the RCC developed from a power vacuum roughly after the year 400. Many aberrant doctrines took centuries more to develop.
Well, “developed” is pretty much an abstract, meaningless word here. You’d be hard-pressed to pinpoint exactly when it originated. If you had said it had gotten more and more powerful, that would make more sense. Even so, if you put your arbitrary threshold at 400, that would mean that it would certainly include many “aberrant” doctrines/practices/traditions which Protestants reject/despise/anathemize/damn to hell/tell is pagan.
On the other hand, many “aberrant doctrines” took only years or decades or just a few centuries to develop after Luther. Take Baptistism, for example. It took only 92 years after 1517 for John Smyth to create his aberrant doctrine(s).
Anyway, that’s not the issue. You’re being picky here. Take or give 400 years, that’s more than a 1100 years (counting up to Luther) of “universally wrong” things around. If you count up to Calvin and John Smyth, there is a slightly wider gap.
But you said: “It is extremely rare for the Church to get an issue universally wrong for almost 2,000 years if we are to believe that the Holy Spirit guards His Church from pervasive, universal error.”
Most other Protestants get around this issue arguing exactly the opposite from you: they didn’t believe the Holy Spirit guarded the his Church from “pervasive, universal error” — unless you define his Church, as some Baptists do, as an invisible, indiscriminate, historically inexistent Church (because we have no evidence). But historians define “the Church(es)” as things that exist, not things you wish existed. There is no invisible church made up by invisible people.
Again, let’s keep this simple. No one is saying that the Catholic Church had things “universally” wrong for 1500 years, or 1100 years, or any amount. What I said, and you ignored, is that major changes started after the year 400 (where the East West Roman Empire split became permanent, and later Rome fell) and after this point aberrant doctrines developed over the course of centuries.
“What I said, and you ignored, is that major changes started after the year 400”
No, I didn’t ignore that. Major changes occurred also between 100-320; 320-400 etc. Major changes occur often in such a huge span of time (several centuries). Yet what you define as aberrant doctrines is debatable. I define John Smyth’s doctrines, Calvin’s doctrines, Presbyterian doctrines, and so on, as aberrant. If they’re not, they must be a leap back to “true Christianity”, which for you existed prior to 400 CE, and which for many of your ilk existed only prior to circa 100 CE.
Anyway, I’m glad to know that for you the Catholic Church, or the Orthodox Church, for that matter, have never been in “pervasive, universal error.” That’s exactly what some Protestants claim.
But the crux of your claim is that “It is extremely rare for the Church to get an issue universally wrong for almost 2,000 years”.
That would be you arguing in favor of church veils — a secondary matter. But try to generalize that, and you get into trouble.
You say it’s extremely rare: but make a list of Catholic doctrines you reject, and you’ll see they’re not extremely rare (saints, Eucharist, Mary, priests, tradition), that they were held universally (only heretics contested them), by “universally” meaning they were held by the whole church, and pervasively, and that kept going for more than a thousand years without neither a general revolt or your god intervening on behalf of your “truth” against those “aberrant” doctrines. Indeed, after the 16th century, in many places what was needed was to force people to stop being Catholic (I mean, a general prohibition of Catholic worship and practice).
What I mean is, if you take that argument to its logical conclusions, all those practices held for more than 1000 years by the Church would have to continue, or else the Holy Spirit didn’t do his job well.
“saints, Eucharist, Mary, priests, tradition” I have no problem with how the early church conceived of these things. Please read: https://christianreformedtheology.com/2016/05/16/the-protestant-church-should-re-institute-confession/
https://christianreformedtheology.com/2016/05/24/the-protestant-church-should-re-institute-penance/
I appreciate your continued defense and proclamation of the validity of 1 Cor 11:3-16. It certainly encourages me.
I agree with your list, with perhaps a caution on no.7. There is definitely a parallel drawn between headship among humans and headship between Christ and God, but the passage itself, while it mentions authority as part of the package in verse 10, draws far more heavily on the glory of God and the glory of men. Man as a whole was created to image God, and to display the glory of God, the female to be helper of the male (and so glory of Man) and the male to be the representative of Man. Since woman is to help her head – man – glorify God, she is to wear a head covering to direct attention to her head, the representative gender. It is in this relationship of glory that I see stronger parallels with the Godhead. It also allows us to parallel the glory given to Christ by the Father with the attitude and honour a woman should be given by a man, and so on and so forth.
However, since Jesus is also the Son of Man, he is the Head man of all other men. As such, a woman also directly helps Christ display the glory of God, and men are to parallel Christ’s subjection to God through their subjection to Christ. But this whole concept of headship and submission is to be understood in light of the parallel between the one will of God, and the time-bound, creaturely requirement to become of one spirit and mind between Christians. The same instructions to shepherds not to lord it over those in their care, to serve, to convince, not to be over-bearing, praying, imploring with tears, humbly considering others better than themselves, treating them as friends, etc, apply to headship in 1 Cor 11.
Added to that, the head covering (and non-head covering for men) reminds us of the patriarchy that saves us. If the woman had not been created from the man, the death and resurrection of Christ the man would not have saved her. And without the interconnectedness of all humans through headship and patriarchy, Christ would have had to die for each of us separately.
So while the headcovering tradition images to some degree the relationship between Christ/the Son and God the Father, the teaching from the passage seems to use headcoverings to point more strongly toward glory than submission (though that is included), and implicitly toward the salvation of all humans by One man.
“Added to that, the head covering (and non-head covering for men) reminds us of the patriarchy that saves us.”
What? Patriarchy saves us? How come?
“If the woman had not been created from the man, the death and resurrection of Christ the man would not have saved her.”
Well, deal with it. Genesis is either metaphor, myth, or worse. Poor fellows didn’t have science yet. Women weren’t created from men, that’s preposterous. Man wasn’t created from mud or whatever. Homo sapiens developed through evolution. And this has nothing to do with salvation.
“And without the interconnectedness of all humans through headship and patriarchy, Christ would have had to die for each of us separately.”
This really had my head twisting: how could you ever arrive at such a convoluted series of illogical and irrational bogus? Jesus = homo sapiens; we = homo sapiens. Nothing to do with headship or patriarchy.
Contra Peter or whoever wrote his letters in is name, women submission in Christendom/Christianity is long overdue. So much for the “women cannot teach” bogus.
Thanks for your interest in my comment, but clearly there’s such foundational difference in understanding between us, and your interest is more in telling me I’m wrong rather than actual engagement. So I don’t think it worth either of our time to discuss it.
If, however, you wanted to understand, even without agreeing, we could give a discussion a go. Until then, all the best.
Of course, if you think your god created woman out of man, and that patriarchy saves us (whatever that means), you are plain wrong. I understood what you said. And I agree with you, discussing with people who believe that Adam and Eve were real people and Yahweh/Elohim created one out of the other and rested on the 7th day and Eve at the fruit and sin came into the world etc. etc. etc. — discussing with people who believe all that literally happened isn’t worth my time. Thanks for pointing that out.
When you learn about science, biology and evolution, and wanted to understand, I could give a discussion a go. Until then, all the best.
Evolution philosophically does not make sense.
Ok, thanks for explaining a bit about where you’re at.
Blessings.
That’s KO for you.
“Evolution philosophically does not make sense.”
As if most philosophers were against it. Guess not.
Evolution is a scientific fact. Adam and Eve philosophically, biologically and need I say historically don’t make sense.
When you see a coca cola can do you ever consider the possibility it randomly came together? Arbitrary macro evolution does not make sense. So, if you do not hold the can came together randomly, you are philosophically inconsistent. What passes as philosophy and science deserves to be laughed at just like we laugh at Ptolomaic astronomy today.
“Arbitrary macro evolution does not make sense.”
There is nothing arbitrary in evolution. If you didn’t get the meaning of “natural selection” from high school, I may guess your school system is a sham. That may explain why American students rate so low in
“What passes as philosophy and science deserves to be laughed at just like we laugh at Ptolomaic astronomy today.”
What passes as pseudo-philosophy, pseudo-religion and pseudo-science in some conservative “Evangelical” American Christian milieus deserves to be laughed at just like we laugh at the Adam and Eve myth today.
Oh, and you didn’t mention any reputable philosophers who are against evolution.
KO, I will simply repeat what I said. Would you seriously entertain the notion that a soda can randomly came together. If you cannot, then you are philosophically inconsistent.
Macroevolution is scientific nonsense. All real science requires empirical observation. Macro-Evolution has never been observed…ever. Natural selection, which is part of micro-evolution, has been observed and is believed by all.
But, being that you invoked natural selection when I was speaking of macro-evolution leads me to believe you have not thought seriously on the subject.
BTW, I think Christians can believe in evolution. I am not convinced in a literal rendering of Genesis. However, I still think “evolution” is scientific nonsense.
“All real science requires empirical observation”
Go tell that to physicists. No one has ever observed microparticles.
For a believer in a 1st century illiterate peasant pracher from Palestine and things like the Holy Ghost or the Resurrection, your expect filming the dinosaurs? Grow up.
I still wonder where on earth you learned science. Micro-evolution — macro-evolution… please point me which biology 101 university textbook that makes those assertions. And please point me some serious philosophers that entertain the notion that evolution is logically flawed. Could not? Great. Ever been to a biology evolution 101 class? No? Great.
“Go tell that to physicists. No one has ever observed microparticles.”
I don’t know anything about microparticles, but physicists base their theoroms off empirical observations and tests with particle accelerators and what not. So, there is no real comparison.
And here’s a book for you: https://books.google.com/books?id=9YutBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA346&dq=macroevolution&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidj4eBofjPAhWMMj4KHbDtAHMQ6AEIKzAD#v=onepage&q=macroevolution&f=false
Any more insults like “grow up,” being that you find it hard to help yourself, you go back on “ban.”
“but physicists base their theoroms off empirical observations and tests”
No, it’s the other way round, too. And theorems are used in math, not physics.
===
Now I see why this distinction between macro and microevolution matters to you: because it’s an old creationist argument that you learned somewhere. I haven’t seen any creationist in decades, so I didn’t even know that people thought that the distinction between micro- and macroevolution mattered: of course evolution means macroevolution, between species.
A nice quote for you:
“`
To a biologist, the “it’s just microevolution” argument is painfully ob-
tuse. In normal science, microevolution refers to evolutionary pro-
cesses within gene pools, such as the origin and spread of individual
gene variants. Macroevolution refers to evolutionary processes that
work across separated gene pools. Speciation, a process that can be
observed in nature, and that creationists accept, is the boundary be-
tween microevolution and macroevolution, because speciation oc-
curs when one gene pool permanently splits into two separate gene
pools. A speciation event is a case of macroevolution. So are other
events that apply to whole gene pools, such as extinction.
For biologists, then, the microevolution/macroevolution distinc-
tion is a matter of scale of analysis, and not some ill-defined level of
evolutionary newness. Studies that examine evolution at a coarse
scale of analysis are also macroevolutionary studies, because they
are typically looking at multiple species—separate branches on the
evolutionary tree. Evolution within a single twig on the tree, by con-
trast, is microevolution.
It is true that scientists themselves contribute to confusion
over this issue. This typically occurs because macroevolution is such
a broad term that it can be applied to a wide range of proposed
processes, ranging from uncontroversial (extinction, speciation,
adaptive radiation, ecological drift), to controversial (punctuated
equilibria, species selection), to discredited (orthogenesis, salta-
tion). In a perfect world, scientists would refer to these specific pro-
cesses rather than the very general micro/macro distinction, but as
long as the terms are being used, it behooves us to understand what
they mean within the scientific community. Evolutionary biologists
on both sides of famously contentious debates seem to agree that
the definition of macroevolution boils down to “evolution above the
species level.” 26
“`
(Eugenie C. Scott and Glenn Branch (ed.) Not in our classrooms — Why Intelligent Design Is Wrong for Our Schools. p. 50).
By the way, I’m still expecting a serious biologist and philosopher (take your Biology 101 textbook here) explicitly denying evolution (yes, MACROevolution).
I am still waiting for you to say whether you seriously entertain that a soda can was randomly put together,
You just didn’t engage with the “microevolution” argument as per the quote above, or my bet: “I’m still expecting a serious biologist and philosopher (take your Biology 101 textbook here) explicitly denying evolution (yes, MACROevolution).”
As to what evolution has to do with a coke can, you can invoke your “watchmaker” fairy-tale as much as you want, it has nothing to do with evolution.
I don’t understand Paul’s argument. The thing is, Paul doesn’t present the head covering as a command from Christ. He presents it as a logical argument drawn from a hierarchical understanding of headship. And this hierarchical understanding of headship is also merely extrapolated logically. When Paul argues from “logical” premises he is not presenting revelation but his own thought process. If Paul says “Christ commanded X” that’s one thing. If he says “The OT says X, therefore Y’ he’s interpreting from his own “logic” like any other preacher; this is not inspired. If he draws premises from nature, this is also not inspired. Paul says nature itself teaches us a man must have short hair and a woman long hair, but does “nature” really teach that or is this Paul’s own weird interpretation of “nature” that is not sustainable? In what way does nature teach this? The typical “preacher argument” I always heard growing up was “every many knows that they are more attracted to women with long hair than short,” yet I find this is false, as I am attracted to women with short hair, particularly I think Asian women look quite good with short hair. So it doesn’t seem that “nature” teaches me that women must have long hair. Furthermore, Paul’s notion that “man is the head of women” may indeed be correct, because God tells eve that Adam will rule over her, yet his conclusion he draws “logically” (per his logic, not universal logic) from this may be wrong. Because man is the head of woman, therefore for woman to pray to God through Christ alone as mediator, she must cover her physical head as a symbolic covering of man as her spiritual head….that’s Paul’s argument…but is Adam’s “headship” over Eve “spiritual” or only familial? Adam is the head of the house, but that doesn’t imply that he is a sort of mediator figure. So the idea that woman must cover her man (to get him out of the picture as mediator) and go through Christ as sole mediator….this is all bad logic, much like we would expect from a Talmudic rabbi just making up new fake mitzvot as part of their contrived Halakah. I mean I was raised in a very fundamentalist church that insisted women not cut their hair because they “went back to the Greek” (they claimed) and found that komao means to “let the hair grow” (Thayer) (they should have looked at Liddell and Scott, “let the hair grow IN LOCKS”) and thus women must let the hair grow “uncut” they claimed, and they made a big deal on this, because women must have the covering an the “uncut” hair is the covering they said…this was a big deal. But how I look at it now is it was a big fuss over nothing, since the Talmudic-style logic Paul uses to arrive at whatever exactly he is teaching here is clearly invalid.
Apostles cannot err in teaching doctrine, Christ promised He would lead then into all truth.
Well, Paul conveniently missed the meeting where that promise was made. The thing is, and this is very simple: If Paul’s convoluted logic on this has any authority, then every convoluted argument of similar stripe does too. Meaning, you might as well swim the Tiber and believe every convoluted argument a Catholic comes up with for arguing the infallibility of the manifest heretic Poop Francis. Man being the head of women means women must cover their heads when praying = Mary’s virginity makes her the new ark of the covenant. Its the same sub-logical “logic” involved in both claims.
Paul was given the right hand of fellowship and personal revelation from Christ. Is there empirical proof of this? Well, if 2 Peter is legitimate it shows that someone in the meetng put his stamp of approval on Paul, as Peter called his letters Scripture.
The “right hand of fellowship” only means he was accepted as a fellow Christian not as an apostle. As to the passage in 2 Peter 3:16, my understanding is that the phrase “ὡς καὶ τὰς λοιπὰς γραφὰς” should be translated “as they do his other writings” not “as they do the other Scriptures.” But more importantly, we don’t see the real apostles arguing from logical deduction in the way Paul does. They speak as authoritative not in chains of questionable logic leading from questionable premises to strange doctrines like Paul does.
Peter calls Paul’s letters “epistolais” in 2 Pet 3:16. “Graphas” in the same verse is always a reference to Scriptures, and not his letters.
http://biblehub.com/greek/graphas_1124.htm
Graphe, the singular, is also always translated Scripture:
http://biblehub.com/greek/graphe__1124.htm
So, your translation is an innovation and does not conform to biblical norms.
Next, you’ll tell me 2 peter was not written by peter.
The only reason graphas and graphe are translated as scripture is because the NT doesn’t discuss any other writings, other than the “writing of divorcement” which has its own word, and the writing of the accusation above Jesus’ head on the cross. Its very easy then for someone to insinuate that the phrase “as they do his other writings” should be translated “as they do the other Scriptures” so long as the person they’re talking to doesn’t know how Greek works beyond biblical Greek.
It is easier to infer that Peter would have simply repeated the word “epistle” twice if he was not explicitly calling Paul’s letter’s Scriptures.Further, if he meant to say “as they do in his other writings” he would ahve said so. But he didn’t. He said, “as they do with the other…”
Except that its not. We probably don’t have all of Paul’s writings, just as we don’t have the book of Jasher or the book of the wars of the Lord or several other books references in the Old Testament. Peter is saying that they twist what is in “in all his epistles” as well as “his other writings.” His epistles and whatever else he wrote. I know that he is only talking about Paul’s writings and not scripture also from how he would go the other way if twisting scripture was the topic under discussion. I.e. he would have said “The unstable and unlearned twist all scripture, as they also twist Paul’s epistles in particular” rather than “here is something found in all Paul’s epistles which they twist as they do all other scripture.” Its obvious that in reality what Peter is writing is NOT an indictment of the so-called “unstable and unlearned” but a veiled indictment of Paul’s poor writing skills. Otherwise, he would present examples from the rest of scripture that they twist. After all, his “politically correct” interpretation of “all of Paul’s epistles” is in fact wrong, in that Paul does NOT write about this topic in all his epistles, and his implication is that all Paul means by all that “faith vs works” rhetoric is this, but it clearly isn’t. The WHOLE function of 2nd Peter 3:15-16 is to convince us to interpret all of Paul’s questionable rhetoric (especially the faith vs works rhetoric and predestination rhetoric) in such a way to understand Paul’s only point with that rhetoric to be that we should “account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” but surely you don’t think that’s what Paul really means by all that rhetoric. Peter is trying to save Paul’s writings by putting the best possible SPIN on them, but it is undoubtedly SPIN.
It looks like you are dumping what Peter plainly said, and the Greek words he used, in favor of anti-Paul speculation. This shows, unless you had a different ax to grind, it would not matter what the Scriptures said about Paul and how they agree with the content of what he wrote. Not good.